LAMBERHURST, KENT UK

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As with all my blog posts – If you click the BROWN writing – it will open in a new page to links.

We have been told a lot about the Waller family and the noble sides and from whence they came, well from whence they may have come from!  What we do know is that Thomas Waller was leased Lamberhurst in Kent.  He was the 1st to move and settle down in the south in Kent..  He married we believe an Ann Keat, but this has not been verified as of yet, and many people have an ‘unknown’ wife for him.  This was in about C1300.

Lamberhurst was a beautiful place to live, it was in a country side estate. and much is written about it in many books, so is the family tree from here. We must also understand in those days that land owning was a huge thing for noble seats of family.  It showed your status and wealth and how hard you worked for royalty, even though we know that knights knew if they lived they would be paid handsomely! So the Waller family grew into land and wealth.  Groombridge was apart of all this, but i am treating it separately for a reason to be shown later.    However, I decided for once, to look at the other family members who had to work for a living and what I have found is so interesting!

We know of the Knights and the Nobles  and the Sir’s and the Ladies, but what of  the ordinary Waller family life?  Those like many of us who had to work hard for a living, with know help from anyone but yourself?

 

Returning to Thomas Waller of C1272, born in Northamptonshire, Newark – he was the brother of three others – Richard, David and John. Not much is known about these brothers yet, but we have been told that David De Walloore may be our David and he was a master of the rolls for many years.  Richard and John there is nothing at all – but I would suggest one-day something may come up in the master rolls or some old historical manuscripts that have not been found yet or possibly transcribed. As we know much history is about the nobles or lead heir not the other members of a family. We can assume either they died young, or went back abroad or they were monks.  This is a huge possibility of the times, but for now we only have Thomas to work with.

Sir Thomas Waller C1272, Northamptonshire, obviously knighted at some point to become a Sir,  he had settled and married Anne Keat and had a young son whom he also called Thomas Waller born C1300 at Lamberhurst. He married heiress Catherine De Clifford.   On his father’s death he inherited Groombridge as well as Lamberhurst and so the status started to build. Unfortunately to this date only one child has been found – I am still searching this point.  Thomas and Catherine had a son and also called him Thomas Waller C1330 Groombridge Kent, and he married heiress Christina Chalfunt.  These two had two boys ( as this is all that has been found thus far – I assume there were others)

John Waller C1363 Groombridge kent and Thomas Waller C1367 Goombridge Kent.  Originally I could only find one child John, but over researching Thomas cropped up and so we have two boys.    This is where the family divide!

John married Margaret Lansdall  and Thomas married Alison Lansdall.

John and Margaret stayed in Groombridge as he was the Heir and Thomas’s and Alison’s family settled in Suffolk!  Suffolk in those days was also known as Kent county…  So we have the 1st split of the Waller Clan.

I am staying with the younger son Thomas C1367 and Alison, because there is an interesting thing going on here.  They had 1st, John Waller born C1387 at Groombridge, but he was the one whom settled in Suffolk with his young wife Maude Darell and so the Suffolk line began.  The Suffolk line I shall return to at a later date – there are again many noble names to be found in this line.

2nd son Thomas Waller C1388 Groombridge stayed around and he married a Katherine, but we don’t know her surname as of yet.. her name is actually spelt Katheryn –  They had three sons –    John, william and Ralph!   William was the youngest and he was a monk and  of the Battle Abbey!     The boy’s father was born of Groombridge but we know he died at Lamberhurst and he had it in his possession, as Katherine’s will tells us this, she passed it over to the eldest son John.  A summary of it can be read here:-

“A summary of Katherine’s will is on the Kent archaeology website, in the section of abstracts of Lambeth wills [http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/Wills/Lbth/Bk22/page%20122.htm]:
Katherine Wallere, relict of Thomas Wallere de Lamberhurst, 10 March 1423. To be buried in the church of Lamberhurst. To the high altar 13s. 4d. To the clerk there 20d. To the work (opus) of the said church 20s. To the Abbot of Begham 20s. and to the Convent there 20s. To William Wallere my son, monk of Batayle 20s. To Ralph my son 10 marcs. To Katherine Mawfeld my daughter 10 marcs. Residue to John Wallere my son, executor. The Probate Act is missing. The Will before was proved 7 August 1424. (374b Chichele I)

Katherine’s son William Waller became the abbot of Battle Abbey in 1435 and died in 1437.

Parts of this will are also included in Walter H. Godfrey, ed., Transcripts of Sussex Wills as far as they relate to Ecclesiological and Parochial Subjects, up to the year 1560, transcribed and classified by R. Garraway Rice, Vol. I-IV. [Lewes: Sussex Record Society, Vol. XLI-XLIII, XLV, 1935, 1936-37, 1938, 1940-41]:
“Katerina Wallere of Lamberhurst, relicta Thome Wallere de Lamberhurst, 1423-4, March 10. No P.A. Lambeth Arch. Reg. Chichele, Fo. 374b.” [Vol. III, p. 73] “lego summo altari eiusdem [Lamberhurst] xiiij s iiij d.” [Vol. III, p. 74] “lego ad opus predicte ecc’ie [Lamberhurst] xx s.” [Vol. III, p. 75] “lego Willmo Wallere filio meo monacho de Batayle xx s.” [Battle Abbey ] [Vol. I, p. 99] Frant, Bayham Abbey “lego Abbati de Begehm. xx s. Item lego conventui ibidem xx s.” [Vol. II, 201] Lamberhurst “Clerico ibidem xx d.” [Vol. IV, p. 433]”

From this will we also learn that the pair had a daughter Catherine – and she was a Mawfeild or moorfeild, so had obviously married.     So what of Ralph and John?  We know William was a monk in the Battle Abbey, the daughter married.  But what of the other two boys and what happened to them?  All I can say at this point is, more researching is required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Abbey

So returning to Thomas and Alison, both their children started new family origins, of what I have yet to find out.  But from this line I kept asking myself there has to be more?  There is much family in Suffolk and it has to be said heirs get the best!  So I am now wondering what about this Ralph and John of Lamberhurst?

These boys must be somewhere, Ralph and john were alive when there mother died in C1424 – their brother william was a monk in the Battle Abbey so what of these two – hopefully in time we can tell.

I can tell you that both boys were alive in  abt 1430 and 1450 and there is a name for Catherine’s spouse, their sister,  I believe to be Richard Maufeld.   I have also found that she  was in a visitation roll and she married Richard Mawefield and then a John Pope.  I also found this interesting as in the Feet of Fines – I find Richard mawefield, John Waller and Thomas waller mentioned. I found them all in two feet of fines from the British History Online –  the 1st being:-

feet of fines

abt 1430Lamberhurst, Kent, England

2988. John Waller and Maud his wife v. John Seynt John and Alice his wife; a garden, 28 acres of land, 18 acres of wood in Lamberherst; to John and Maud, paying to John Seynt John and Alice during their life 13s. 4d. yearly. (File 87. No. 9.)

2nd:-

feet of fines

abt 1450Lamberhurst, Kent, England

2962. John Darell, John Waller, Richard Mawefeld, William Bertyn, Richard Cliderhowe of Romney, Walter Culpepir, William Bernes, John Judde and Ralph Waller v. Nicholas Carreu and Mercia his wife; three quarters of manor of Redmeregge in Kent, and the fourth part of the manor of Redmeregge in the county of Sussex.

Agreement:

Nicholas and Mercy have acknowledged the 3 parts and fourth part to be the right of Ralph, as those which Ralph, John, John, Richard, William, Richard, Walter, William and John have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Nicholas to John, John, Richard, William, Richard, Walter, William, John and Ralph and the heirs of Ralph for ever.

Warranty  by Nicholas and Mercy for themselves and the heirs of Mercy

FOR THIS:- John, John, Richard, William, Richard, Walter, William, John and Ralph have given them 200 marks of silver.

If you notice the names, Ralph and John – to name the brothers – But we have the Culpepper, and Mawefeld.   We know the Waller’s were linked to Culpepper and we know that Ralph and Johns Sister married a Mawefeld/Moorefeild – could this be family working together to solve problems?  I would like to say yes!

A link to the list of Feet of Fines I have found in Waller

Feet of fines Waller

This is the actual Feet of Fine itself all in the lovely LATIN!

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/CP25%281%29/CP25_1_292/IMG_0058.htm

IMG_0058

This line is where I am at a halt.  The other son John Waller C1387 married Maude Darrell.  Now this line is turning out to be a very interesting read.  The Darrell’s’ they are also in quite a few feet of fines I have found. This descent is for the Suffolk line and leads to the Sherman’s and again another interesting family. Although this is my limit for this line at this time.

So, the Waller’s of this time period married rather well or tried too. In these days as we have been and found out – marriage was made for lands and power.  This is how the Waller’s built their line, Lands and power.  They may have been Esquire’s ( Landowners) but didn’t they do well in marriage and gain?

I have also found out that the ‘Waller’s’ of this era were actually classed as ‘Esquires!’ which in those days were landowners – and the Waller’s had a lot of land in many places! You had to be quite money loaded to have lands in those times.  The Waller’s by here within the family links had a lot of land and houses in Kent, Sussex, Hampshire, and Somerset. They had land in Winchester, Buckinghamshire and London, well business in London. They also had land Up North, Nottinghamshire, Norfolk to name a few. Marriage to a wealthy lady, or an arranged marriage in those times was common place and the majority of time it was really to do with what the lady had, the man wanted and kept for himself, most of the time. I believe a dowry was the word!   Although some women in those times were powerful in their own right as we have heard in history!  Over time we will see how some of these ladies came from very powerful families indeed, was this so the Waller’s could join in with these things?  Or was it the ownership and running of land that had power. Or was it to near a King and be held high? Or was it just the time, when you had to be careful with whom you worked and what you did?

This means to me – that we dont really have one KNIGHT in this era, unless I find other wise.  John Waller C1440 son of Richard and Sylvia Gulby.  He was given part of Clevedon Somerset in 1485 for his part in the battle of Bosworth, by the House of Lancaster/Tudor – Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond, later Henry VII.  Which in a later post I shall share the marriage links to this Royal line! For sure there are many and the history is a variety!

Returning to the other brother, John Waller C1363, the heir,  whom married Margaret Lansdall – well this leads down the road to the other divide –  They had two children that we know of:- Richard Waller C1395 whom married heiress Sylvia Gulby. and a possible William yet to be clarified.   Richard and Sylvia had several children –  and from these children we have another break away this time to Winchester and beyond.

waller brothers marrying Lansdall sisters

This brings me nicely into the next blog – The waller’s of Horsham.

 

 

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Visit to St Mary’s & St Michael’s Church Olde Stoke, Winchester, Hants UK

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St Mary’s and St Michaels Church Olde Stoke

I have been telling my husband of his ancestry for years.. he is interested, but nothing seems to sit with him.  So when I found this information I had to get him to take me and for him to see it for himself.  We were astonished that his son lives in Winchester and we knew nothing of it and for the last four years of travelling from Northern Ireland for family visits, from where we now live,  we have past this 8-10 times alone – without the fact that once my husband did airports for a living and must have passed it 100’s of times, it tickled us imensly!

This Church was for us quite difficult to find!  It is in a very quiet secluded, tiny little place just around Olde Stoke Charity, Winchester!  Because of its location we came across it quite by chance, as it is quite hidden from view from the little lanes around there.  We first took a wrong turn and went the wrong way – we cam back and took a road and saw a vicarage on our right so we pulled in, we knocked but no -one was in – i said to my husband that this was a car park for a church – and it pointed up the road – so we walked a little way and found the gate to the long long long path!

For us in-particular, this was a 1st for an actual genealogy visit and to see first hand a site which once was a thriving place for the De Hampton’s, Waller’s and their Heirs!

Originally in the Grounds was the De Hampton Mansion – and very unfortunately it was in a bad state of repair and was taken down in the C1730. Sir James Phelyppes was the last person to reside in it – and had left it and gone to Ireland where he died in C1690.

Apparently, to the West is man levelled ground which they assume was used for jousting practice! This is to be found in the church booklet.    I found this info about the manor on British History:-

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol3/pp447-451

quote:- ”

MANOR

It seems probable that the lands which afterwards became Stoke Charity parish were granted as part of the manor of Micheldever to Hyde Abbey by Edward the Elder in 904. (fn. 1) However, it would seem that the Abbey had parted with the land by the time of the Domesday Survey if the ‘Stockes’ held by the bishop of Winchester and entered wrongly under Meon Hundred can be STOKE CHARITY. (fn. 2) Then of the land of the manor a certain Geoffrey held four hides held of him by villeins.

By the thirteenth century the manor had passed into the hands of Henry de Caritate or de la Charité and was held of him by John de Windsor while only scutage was owing to the bishop of Winchester. (fn. 3) John de Windsor before his death in 1284 enfeoffed his son Geoffrey de Windsor of the manor of Stoke Charity (fn. 4) and Geoffrey in right of this enfeoffment made fine of 16 acres of land with appurtenances to Richard de la Rude and Margaret his wife in 1287. (fn. 5) However, the heirship of the manor passed to John de Windsor’s granddaughter Alice, daughter of his eldest son Hugh who had seisin of the same when she came of age in 1297. (fn. 6) Alice married first John de Alneto, who died in 1323, (fn. 7) and secondly John Everard. She seems to have had one son at least and possibly a daughter by her first husband, since in 1330 she conveyed part of the manor to Thomas de Alneto who was evidently her son, and the other part to John de Lutershall and Cecilia his wife, who may have been her daughter, with reversion to Thomas. (fn. 8) In 1333 Thomas de Alneto who was about to sell the manor recovered seisin of the same to ensure all rights against Alice and her second husband John Everard, Stephen son of John de Alneto, who may have been another son of Alice, and John de Lutershall and Cecilia his wife. (fn. 9) In proceedings for this purpose Alice and John Everard stated that on Alice’s death the manor must revert to the nearest in blood to John de Windsor, that is undoubtedly to Thomas de Alneto eldest son of Alice. (fn. 10) During the next year, 1334, Thomas de Alneto sold the manor to John de Hampton who was knight of the shire of Southampton from 1336 to 1344. (fn. 11) He was holding the manor as ‘half a fee in Oldstoke’ in 1346, (fn. 12) but died before October, 1357, (fn. 13) leaving a son and heir Thomas de Hampton who was also knight of the shire of Southampton in 1362 and was sheriff of the county from 1361 to 1365. In 1370 this same Thomas presented to the living of Stoke Charity. (fn. 14) The manor passed on his death before 1384 to his son and heir John de Hampton, also knight of the shire in 1394. In 1384 the manor was said to be held by John son of Thomas de Hampton, of the bishopric of Winchester by the service of two knights’ fees. (fn. 15) An inquisition ad quod damnum, taken in 1392, ensured the right of John de Hampton in the manor of ‘Eldestoke,’ held ‘of the Bishop of Winchester for unknown services,’ against all claims put forward by Hyde Abbey. (fn. 16) This same John seems to have died about 1433 in which year his wife Margaret was assigned dower in his lands in Stafford. (fn. 17) His son and heir John Hampton knight of the shire in 1432, (fn. 18) and esquire of the body to Henry VI in 1454, was in his turn succeeded in the manor by his son Thomas Hampton, but at what date is uncertain. Thomas Hampton died in October, 1483, and was buried in the church of Stoke Charity. “

So we walk down this long path to a gate and the lovely old church, apparently somewhere in this land once stood the manor! :-

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My Husband stands at the door and opens it up to reveal a really old, beautiful church. The cold hits you straight away, and the feeling of the church is nice and calm and very peaceful, yet makes you feel strange as you know you are entering history. It is also very very hard to believe that this most of this church was built in and around C1305 It does not feel that old, but it really is! :-

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Once inside, the walls are a white in colour, and the floors have beautiful original old tiles. The feeling comes that many a person has walked this place and sat and prayed, and mourned.

We descend the stairs and head for  the De Hampton Tomb, on our way around we were a little disappointed to note that the pew cushions were Hampton and none were Waller, as there is a lot of crests around the church you would have thought they may have chosen to do different varieties of cushions :-

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The tomb itself was freezing!  But it was old and really beautiful! Other things too note were an old piece of wall had been cleaned back to reveal ancient medieval paintings, and some beautiful wood in the ceilings as well as some lovely plaster work. A lot had been destroyed in the past renovations of the old Church!

On the floor is a plaque to Richard Waller C1492 whom died 1551, he had inherited the manor on the death of his grand-father John Waller C1460 at the age of 11 in 1526. He married Mary Kingsmill C1499 the daughter of John Kingsmill C1456 and Joan or Jane Gifford C? :-

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Returning to the Tomb itself, the top as we all know is the De hampton Tomb with the marriage arms of Waller and Hampton.

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What still intrigues me is the way John Waller used his Great Grand fathers marriage arms with Lansdall!  My husband suggests that maybe in those days they could use what they wanted to decorate their tombs.  It is also suggested that this particular part was done 60 years after the death of John.  John had requested that he be buried in the Olde Stoke church before the altar of St Thomas.

This is the arms on the Phelyppes Altar Tomb, Sir Thomas Phelyppes C1590 – C1627, 1st Baronet and he had married Charitie Waller the eldest daughter of William Waller esq, Lord of the Manor of Olde Stoke

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Here is a wall Plaque to Lady Charitie

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This also helps with our research as it tells us that Lady Charity remarried after the death of Phelyppes. She re married to the Right Honourable William Lord Viscount Ogle. Notice the Boars head above the arms?  Apparently in heraldry this implies Hospitality. This I shall be checking.

 

Thomas Hampton’s tomb has him and his wife and his 6 daughters in brass plates on the top, they also had tow sons who died young. His wife’s head is missing unfortunately, but the work is very detailed.

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Again around the edge were the Family crests:-

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The De hampton Window glass – and some other beautiful windows

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The Rectors of the Church and their Patrons

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Here is a picture of the Rectors of the church notice how old it is C1305 was the 1st one.  Down the list we start to see the Hamptons, wallers and on the other side you can see Phelyppes.  The church is now in the Patronage of the Dean and Chapter of Winchester Cathedral and has been since C1905.

Here is where we left this wonderful church and the tombs.

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This all makes me want to know more about this family and from whence they all came.

Phelyppes Family

I have a mystery to solve and that is the one of Sir Thomas Phelppes –  I have no father for him and there is an unmarked tomb within the church of a Phelyppes.  Over history the Phelyppes, Phillpes, family are all over the place in the UK – but the spelling of the name is so different down through the ages. As is the description of their Arms!  Who was this person and what of his Family?

Waller Ancestry

As for my Waller quest! Hopefully from going here and seeing 1st hand the tombs the names and knowing a bit of their history – I may be able to work on through and track the family from here down.  I do know there were family in Southampton as well as links to Fareham, Porchester and also Gosport.  Could it be that this family having lost its lands and heritage through the times, had members who moved towards the coast? Could this also be a link to my husbands Hampshire line?  I have also recently learned that John Waller of Old stoke had a manor on the isle of wight too! As well as several other places in the UK.

map pompey winchester

 

What still intrigues me is that we lived on the South coast, born and bred, both of us from Portsmouth in Hampshire.  But neither one of us knew about this place or any other thing about the Waller family history and ancestry. Only through my sheer determination have I come thus far and learned about it all.  One day we would like to visit Groombridge and the local areas. We would love to learn more.

My advice would be to go to these places if you can – get the books read them and learn more.  Look at marriages and how estates and lands were gotten hold of and most of all see where it leads you. From this church and its tombs I have proved that our family did hold lands here, yes through marriage, but we did hold them.  It gives us much detail on the people of Old Stoke, and we KNOW Richard was made sheriff and worked these places.  The Crests or Family arms alone are so important to look at, because they tell you an awful lot about marriages.  Do you have unknown people in your trees?  Look at the arms and from here you can find out who they are. It has helped me SO much it is unreal.

Phelyppes tomb crest

This for example will help me solve who the gold arms belong too? There is a common belief in the USA that these arms are also Phelyppes.  They could possibly be another branch, but until I find it I wont know!  Break them down and mark them up – find the crests online and then use them.

Olde Stoke Charity is a gorgeous place – and to think that these lands were once in the hands of the Waller family, quite actually, is beyond belief. However, once they were and history plays an important part in all of us.

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My Olde Stoke Charity family tree

old stoke charity   ( CLICK TO OPEN)

If you click the above BLUE and the then click the PDF file that opens it gives the Old Stoke line from my tree.

 

If you click the link below it will bring up the pedigrees for Olde stoke.

https://archive.org/stream/PedigreesFromTheVisitationOfHampshireMadeByThomasBenolt/PedigreesFromTheVisitstionOfHampshire_v64_286pgs#page/n13/mode/2up/search/waller

 

 

 

 

Lamberhurst, Groombridge, Battle, Kent UK – Waller Starting line From Nottingham

Lamberhurst – The starting ground.

WALLER START South

From this map we get an idea of how the family links up.  Lamberhurst and Groombridge were the very start of the Southern Waller’s.

Lamberhurst was owned by Thomas Waller, whom married Catherine Clifford, and he also owned Groombridge.  Battle, on the south coast was where Battle Abbey is – and from way up the line we have a Monk William Waller,  abt C1416,  Thomas’s Great Grandson.  From here comes the Suffolk line, through Thomas’s Son’s,  son,  John Waller whom married Maud Darell.

Thomas’s son married Christina Chalfunt, they had two sons:-  Both whom married Sister’s.

John married Margaret Lansdall and had Sherrif Richard Waller ect and came down the Groombridge and Lamberhurst way – and  Thomas married Alison Lansdall and also had a thomas and John.  John married Maude Darell and stayed in the Suffolk area, hence the Suffolk line – Thomas married Katherine Champaigne ( we beleive) and they stayed in the Hastings, Battle area. In Katherine’s Will she had three sons and a daughter.  Her daughter Catherine was married to a Richard Mawefield (Moorfield) when her mother died and then went onto marry a Thomas Pope.   William was a monk, Ralph and John waller, whom I am stuck on.  I have come across a John waller  abt ( assumed) 1350 whom married a Deonsie Herbert-Finch, in Hastings area. Could this be the John that married Deonise Herbert Finch?  I know dates are all over the place and not very correct!  Studying more it possibly could be! The future will tell!

Katherine Waller’s Will 

will of katherine waller lamberhurst

 

Map showing my research areas and my links.

.Waller routes

The Red line shows my husband’s family and from how they came down to Havant.  They were at Elsted, Rogate, Iping, Midhurst upto Horsham.

The Blue Line shows the Olde stoke Charity Link –  We know that Richard Waller’s son married into the Hamptons and consequently became Lord of Olde Stoke…

I have linked it to Winchester, Southampton, Fareham, Gosport, Portsmouth, Petersfield, Godalming and upwards.  Interestingly, the red line and blue lines cross…  IF,  I joined the Orange Line from Lamberhurst to Olde Stoke – the lines also would cross.. Because, Sir Richard’s son married into the Hampton family – and he lived in Groombridge for a while.  The Waller’s were also Land owners and had lands from Olde Stoke, right across to Waterlooville, Catherington and Horndean area…   He was also Sherrif and did much work across the South..

The Orange Line shows the Groombridge, Lamberhurst, then the links to Tenterden, Bethersden, Rye, Battle and Winchelsea. To those that dont know Winchelsea, in that era was a huge sink port – a very busy port for ships goods ect.

From what I show here,  we can see there are many links to be found. This also proves that the family in the south do come together at some point – how and where is yet to be determined.  As families grew and moved to other areas for work this is what happened. Also as we all know the main Waller Branch lost many Homes and lands in due course over time – debts, over spending and heirs selling it off!

In later blogs I shall break all these down – but i wanted to show the research links thus far on the map – and too be honest this is helping me, far more than I realised!

My Waller Research from Thomas Waller and Catherine Clifford

my waller research

Olde Stoke Charity, Winchester, UK

olde-stoke-map

This line of Waller’s is a very interesting link to the ‘main line!’  I found them totally by mistake – on researching the Waller family tree.  This family is so big and all over the place as I have mentioned before!  What tickles me is that my husband was born in Havant in Hampshire and for generations the family has lived and worked within this part of England!  They never knew of the Winchester Link!  We also were terribly shocked to know that this part of the family line were just up the road and to top that off his son lives in Winchester!  We were just around the corner so to speak and have never seen this part of the family line or even visited the place!  Then also I find out that this line of ‘Waller’s’ owned land right up to Rowlands Castle, including Wecock farm, Clanfield, Denmead as well as Catherington up to as far and beyond as Petersfield!

They were great land owners of the time as we know – This part of the Waller’s descend from Sherrif Richard Waller 1395 and his father John Waller 1363 and Margaret Lansdall, ( the other brother married the sister, Alison Lansdall – Thomas Waller 1367 and this is the Suffolk Line!)

Sherrif Richard Waller 1395, Heir of John Waller 1363,  married Margaret Gulby 1402 and they had several children – they had three sons and one daughter.

Richard waller 1430, the 1st son married Alice Brudenell Died 1481, they had three children John, William and Alice.   John Waller 1460 married Joan De Hampton 1460 and she was heir to the Olde Stoke Charity estates.  She died before John and consequently the lands went to him! So, he became Lord of Olde Stoke Charity! and the line descends from him!

John Waller, Will!

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Basically, this line is now obselete and long long gone, however, much remains in the way of historical reference, even down to how the lands were lost, or past over!  We know that a grand son was left the titled lands and as he was so young and in-experienced he frittered it all away! Having to pay off his debts and dying – the lands went on to others!

In May this year 2017 we are going to visit this place and see for ourselves, the tomb of Waller and Hampton which is in the St Mary’s Church, Olde Stoke Charity and looks very splendid indeed.  The ‘Hampton’ manor house is long gone having been demolished in C1705.  Only the church now stands and is of Norman Build!

Here is a picture of the Waller Tomb part thereof – showing the arms of Waller, Lansdall and Hampton.  Through out this church there are many more descriptions of the surrounding family and some other Waller arms!

St Mary’s Church, Old Stoke Charity, Winchester

‘The Waller and Hampton Tomb’

waller-tomb-olde-stoke-charity-winchester

 Left – Waller- Lansdall Quarted –  Center-  Waller- Lansdall, impaled Hampton – Last Hampton.

For one, what is astonishing me is that ‘Lansdall’ was John’s, Great Grandfathers’ John Waller 1363,  wife, Margaret Lansdell 1375 – Now you ask what is astonishing about this?  Well I question why his great grand son is using these arms/shield?  Below i attach the visitation booklet for this family and the arms –  see the link to old stoke? and also the Waller’s ascendents! Which leads me into the Brudenell’s – This family is very sparse on our tree for information – I am waiting to hear from the Brudnell family about any information I can get on this Alice Brudenell!

https://archive.org/stream/PedigreesFromTheVisitationOfHampshireMadeByThomasBenolt/PedigreesFromTheVisitstionOfHampshire_v64_286pgs#page/n151/mode/2up/search/waller

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pedigreesfromthevisitstionofhampshire_v64_286pgs_0151

Until  we visit here and have a good look about and buy ourselves the church booklet – this will have to remain a very interesting question!

There is also another Waller sheild here depicting a Boar on the top!   What is this about? We will have to wait and see in May 2017.

I have noticed from Gleaned information that the Waller Sheild we all have – with out the estcrucheon added to it just, the shield –

0abb0bde-2375-42b9-a63e-84cd84aa21e4

that there are many variations of it!  SO please whilst researching this family make sure you are going down the correct line!

The waller shield with the Green leaves is IRELAND and the irish link,

waller-irish-crest

 

These arms or shield are for the WARREN WALLER’s –  Nobody really knows yet how this line became Warren-Waller.  A lot of assumption leads to religion and maybe this caused this line to use Waller!  This is a totally different line from our Waller’s and much research is going on for it. The  Waller, Tipperary Line.

wallerarms

This is the GERMAN waller sheild

german-line

The United States of American Waller Line

usa-waller

This is just ‘some’ of what I have come across during my research of the Waller Line!

SO be careful which one you look for.  We are ‘WALLER’  0abb0bde-2375-42b9-a63e-84cd84aa21e4

 

Addition -:   I put these up here because many many trees I have come across are confusing and mixing up lines of Waller’s – I was guilty of it myself in the beginning.  This family is so big that these things can happen – My family tree uptil this point is as close as I can get it researching the way I have –  The Waller’s owned such lands and areas, sons of these ascendants moved to different areas due to marriage or inheriting land or the jobs they held.  We have such a job sorting this all out – to this date on ancestry I have 32 trees running – of the different lines of Waller’s – as they are being sorted out and then adding to my main tree after verification.  It has been a lot of hard work and many hours of reading and looking to get this far – and I hope my blog will be interesting to those who are researching this line.  The main mix up is the Bassingbourne Warren Wallers – i have said it before that as the years came down the warren wallers dropped the warren and became known as just waller – by the time they reached London!  On top of this, there were Waller’s themselves in London and the surrounding area, and then we have the Greenwich Waller’s as well!  This moves into Suffolk – which I undestand Suffolk is the line also descending from our Waller’s of Nottingham!   The Greenwich Waller’s is another Kettle of fish altogether, and we have one of these marrying our Kent waller – and whom was the armourer for Henry VIII.   So you can see just by these few words how the family is being mixed up altogether and people thinking they have the correct lines.  TOO many Waller’s out there for sure!

The sad thing about this Old Stoke Charity line – is that when you look at the history and the family as a unit – you see in those turbulent times that cousin against cousin put a lot of strain upon our Family.  William Waller the Parlimentarian was  a big part of this and there are so many sad stories of which I shall blog about as I go.  Again through History alot was to do with religion and Royality – we had such hard fighting people in our family and they died heroes for their cause! Very interesting to piece it altogther!

After our visit in May this year I shall update this section of the blog with what I have found out about te Olde Stoke Charity Line..  so please watch this space!

BRANCHES -Nottinghampshire

Goodness me there are a lot of branches to deal with in this family of ours!  I have been away from blogging for a long while – as I have been trying to break the hold  on my husbands tree!  Without spending too much money on certificates and the like, it is going to be rather difficult.  On this long journey I am anticipating a lot of errors.  I have found many within the trees as is!

Branches!BRANCHES

There are literally lots of branches from the same family – the ones on here I have looked into and I am still working on. Later  on in the blog we will include the  Irish waller’s, our USA cousins and how they got there – and see if anymore links pop up along the way.

As we know all Waller’s can link to Alured at the top of the tree –  BUT, I here you ask how is this and where does he come from?

Gleaned from land records and the doomesday records it is suggested that Alured De Valer came from Normandy in France.  It is a HUGE task to find records Post C1700 so anything before C1700 is gleaned from reading historical records, books and any online history you can find.  I am starting at the top in Nottinghamshire.

We have all, well most of us, have seen the films and plays, read books and sat through history lessons in school, on the wars and civil wars that built europe as we know it today. These things tell us that Kings were against Kings and warring in feilds and glens to build what we know today as the Royal Family.  In the early years there were many kings and each one was head of what we know as counties in our country. As was normal that was not enough and wars broke out between counties and kings were over thrown and in time we were left with one.  Or so we thought.

As we know with the history of the Battle of Hastings, the normans were brought in – and we had many knights here from continental Europe.  This was a period of chivalry and everyone wanted to please the King.  Now our Knights were supposedley, brought in from Normandy, after being asked to come and help with the warring times of our country, so I have read – but I have found out recently that they had lands in Rochelle, france and were alliegance to the then french King.  Because of the ‘chivalry’ of the time, Knights would go where they were needed and also for what they might possibly get out of it! As they had there own lands to build to pass down to family as they did in those times.  Beware for the Knight who helps a king! The poor chaps did not know what was going to hit them!  In those times the kIng would give lands, and homes and estates to those who swore allegience to him – but woe betide those who were against him for any reason or else they would lose everything they were given and hung out to dry – Literally in some cases!

De Valer in latin stands for ‘In the Valley’ or ‘of the valley’.  In those times, Latin was the spoken word. Priests wrote up the beautiful papers we see today on the Television or in churches and cathedrals and also in Museums and libraries.  Beautiful kept manuscripts, of those, that none like me could possibly understand in a million years, so we rely on what we are told they say.  Specialists in this field, Historians whom are trained,  decipher the word as they understand the latin writing. Alas we were not taught latin in our years and it is hard to read.  What we do know is that in the latin alphabet there was no’W’ as we know it.  An ‘f’ was used as a ‘s’ and all sorts of interesting things we can see and here about.

Recently, I have learned that the spelling of our family name may also be linked with ‘Valler’ now, in suggesting this I am opening a huge can of worms, which I understand.  I know that with geneaolgy this is hard thing to prove.  However, In the British history online there are many CLOSED papers , British History online

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the Calendar rolls of Edward I are locked to view. I personally can not afford the premium just yet, but intime I shall subscribe!   There are many in there and there are many references to Valer, Wallur, vallur, valer and waller itself. When you look at the dates and the places – they are within our family history line.  In time I hope to crack this one and open up this can of worms.  There is a discrepencancy that David le Wallur – Master of arms – is not related or could be related!   In doing much reading in the history I am begininng to think this family are all as one!  This would help to close the huge gap we have in the top of the line and open many more doors.

ALURED DE VALER (WALUR)

We start with this name – many say he is mentioned in the doomesday book and to this day i have found nothing to support this.  It is said he is on the Battle Abbey Roll and this has been proven to be very fictonal to say the least.  Of the 639 names on this roll only 6 have been verfied as actual people whom served with the conqueror.

As I have suggested above there is a Valleur/valor – but by no accounts can we use this list of names because they have since found they had been added many hundreds of years later.  Which for us is a huge shame.  To be quite blunt – even on the Bayeaux Tapestry there is no Waller arms, or anything that you could possibly say resembles it! Also, we must remember this was made many years after the fact!  I am not for one minute suggesting they didnt fight with the Conquerer, there is just no valid proof at this time to verify it.

I have found an old writing which proves Alured was in Nottinghampshire during this time and married to Adelina de Hockerton.  The Hockerton’s of Hockerton were quite a  land holding family.  Adlina brought with her  a marriage dowry,  the land in Newerk where they lived and Alured, it is suggested could do nothing without permission from the Hockerton family – as they say the deed is written in such a way that it sounds like this.  They lived just outside in Newark on Trent, to be precise.   We have some proof of Alured his son John and Alured’s wife Adelina de Hockerton.  It is suggested that her father was Gumbert and her mother was Basilla of Hockerton. Bassila is mentioned in the deed.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U5RJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=alured+de+walur&source=bl&ots=9rPyq-eb7v&sig=0xW10fswBqH3gka7iLiPCPWKYMM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YKccU_-nA86O7QbvpoDoCA&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=alured%20de%20walur&f=false

About Hockerton- very interesting read:-

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/thoroton-notts/vol3/pp120-127

Alfred De Valer C1010  (of Normandy we beleive)

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Alured DeValur  C1040-1083

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ALURED De VALUR – ADELINA DeHOCKERTON

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JOHN DE VALUR

I also found evidence sourced by someone in the Nottinghampshire archives that there are grants held there on the following..

Documents in the Nottinghamshire Archives concerning these grants mention Alured le Walur, his wife Adelina, sons John and Milo, grandson Henry (son of John) and granddaughters Adelicia and Margaret (daughters of Milo). [http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/default.aspx]

Many thanks to Janet and Robert Wolfe Genealogy:-

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Summaries of Documents in the Nottinghamshire Archives:
DD/SR/102/13 nd [c 1146 – 1166]
Deed of the Chapter of Suella [Southwell] witnessing the grant by Aluredus le Walur to the fraternity of Rufordia of 2 bovates of land in Hocretunia etc in return for 8s 0d and an annual rent of 6s 0d

DD/SR/102/33 1176 – 1184
Confirmation by William de Bella Aqua in return for 30 lambs of an agreement made between the monks of Rufford and Adeline wife of Aluredus le Walur de Neuwerc and Milo her son concerning 2 bovates of land in his fee in Hocertun

DD/SR/102/152 1183
Indenture of Agreement between the monks of Ruford’ and John son of Alured le Walur by which John demises 14 acres of arable land in Hocerton’ to the monks for 10 years in return for a total rent paid by the monks of 21s 4d.

DD/SR/102/7 nd [c 1180 – 1200]
Exchange and grant by which John le Walur de Hocretona gives the monks of Ruford a coulter in Hocetonia and three acres of another coulter which comprises five in all, and receives in exchange for 15 acres lying east of a wood between Wudehus and Hocet’; and John further gives the remaining two acres from the five in his second coulter in return for an annual rent of 4d

DD/SR/102/24 nd [c 1210 – 1220]
Confirmation by Henry le Walur de Hokuton to the monks of Rufford of a coulter in Hokuton

DD/SR/102/46 nd [c 1200 – 1227]
Confirmation by Henry le Walur de Hokerton son of John le Walur to the monks of Rufford of the exchange made between the monks and John his father relating to lands in Hokerton; moreover he releases a rent of 4d per annum paid by the monks on part of the land concerned

DD/SR/208/66 nd [c 1210 – 1220]
Confirmation of Grant
Hen le Walur of Hockerton to monks of Rufford of cultivation granted by John le Walur in Hockerton

DD/SR/102/39 1212 – 1213
Release by Adelicia and Margaret daughters of Mylo le Walur widows, to the monks of Rufford of an annual rent of 5s 0d paid by the monks on 2 bovates of land etc in Hokerton

DD/SR/102/51 1212 – 1213
Grant by Adelicia and Margaret daughters of Milo le Walur to the monks of Rufford of two bovates of land etc in Hokertona at an annual rent of 5s 0d

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From this we now know that Alured had other members there and another two sons and that Milo’s daughters had married as they were both widows – to whom we dont know! :-

ALURED De VALUR – ADELINA DeHOCKERTON

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ROBERT DE VALUR                        JOHN DE VALUR = ?                       MILO De Valur

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                                                                          Henry De Valur  =  ?             Adelicia de valur     Margaret De Valur

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When we look at the spelling in this form we can see where all the controversy lies! When we trade the ‘V’ for the newly written’W’ (which remember was two’v’s’ put together to form the new letter – we have the ‘W’. So Alured De Valer becomes ‘Walur’ –  When these old papers are transcribed by our clever historians who can read the latin, it becomes more understandable – however, in saying this there is also the added problem of the different variants of the name and how it was spelled in the beginning. In a few peice’s there are four different spellings of the ‘one’ name – who is the same person!  This is where our problems lie.

Continued from above: –

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Vilhelm(William) De Valur  

(This name comes up in the Calendar rolls)

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Walter de Valur             Agatha de VAlur             Henry De Valer C1241 = Alicia De Mortimer

                                                                                                                             |

John De Valer                           Richard De Valur                            Thomas De Valur   C1272-C1360

                                                                                                                       |

                                                                                       This Thomas is where we can start as he was the one whom it is written, inherited Lamberhurst estate.  we are not sure with whom he married at the time yet!  This Thomas was also Known as Waller!  He held Lamberhust in Kent and this is where the family grows away from Nottinghamshire in the North of England  towards Kent in the South Coast of England – Quite a move one would say!  I believe tha Walter De valur sold the Nottinghampshire estates and after many years of holding the Wallers had moved on!

To finish on what I have at the moment in Nottinghampshire,  I have just found some interesting information that a William le Wallier was a templar knight and is in the Templar files – ‘The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of William Waliere, which was dated 1185, in the “Records of the Templars in England in the 12th Century, Kent”,

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Valler#ixzz422w98Olk

I have also found that a ‘David Le wallur’  – ”David de Waller, master of the rolls to King Edward III for thirty years”,  as well as some other names that have turned up – Adam, Richard to name but two!

For now Nottinghampshire runs dry for gleaning and we continue on In ‘KENT’ with Thomas de Waller. As he landed the Lamberhurst estate!

SUMMING UP!

In summing up the gleaning of historical papers and books and also thanks to others who have managed to get hold of these papers and books..  We can safely say our Family history started in England in Nottinghampshire. We were medeieval Knights of the realm and these Knights worked hard for their lands most often with their lives!  We can safely say that ‘Valur’ was our name and it changed over time with the learning of writings.  There is still much to proove and find on this name – and whence they came!  Normandy appears to be the  suggested place where the original family lived their lives. I am not a french reader by all accounts, I can make out some words but not many –  when I can get the writings transcribed in English I shall share them here!   We know that there were many Knights whom came and fought the wars here – and we know they were paid well with lands and estates.  This is where we get most of our information from for these early times.  The more we find, the more truthful answers we get!

I know from reading that the de SAINT VALERY’s were very good freinds of William the Conqueror – and this is how he rallied help from France and its Knights – again chivalry was very rife during these times. ‘Dieppe was not on the map in those times as a port, so  Saint Valery was the area they had moored up – and the bad weather in the english channel had held up nigh on a 1000 ships, holding knights and horses – and whilst waiting there, William and his army – were fed and watered by the Saint Valery people! ‘  “quoted from a french website” As deeds and latin is transcribed hopefully we will learn more of the Knights of Nottinghampshire – our De Valur’s.  It turns out the De valery  family were cousins of the Conqueror and this is how he managed to raise such an army to take out Harold!

Questions remain in Nottinghampshire – Do we dare even suggest our family were knights?  Do we suggest that they fought with the Conqueror?  How do we know our family were from Normandy?  Who Knows only time will tell!

In closing this Nottinghampshire research blog, I feel that yes we have some answers to our questions of the Nottinghampshire Line.  I also feel that the first proper link we have is from the son born in Nottinghampshire ‘Thomas’ who landed Lamberhurst.  He is much written about and for me the line begins here!  Again, before C1700 researching is very hard, however, Nottinghampshire is the begining of a long history and from here we move  a long road on to the ‘Lamberhurst’ line in Kent,  on the South Coast of England!

Lamberhurst Line is the next Blog!  Join me to find out more on this very interesting line.

Wallers of Cuckfield and Hampshire UK

area

County of Sussex UK

West Sussex and East Sussex

county

Hampshire is just to the left Of Sussex on the South Coast of UK

My Husband’s ‘Waller’ family are from the South Coast of the UK –  mainly originating from West Sussex and beyond up through Kent.  Now, the ‘Waller’ family are a very large worldwide family indeed.  It is said that ALL the ‘Waller’s’  around the world can make claim to Alured De Valur in C1010.  This is huge to say the least.  In saying this I must suggest to you that you MUST research this for yourself.  Make sure you double-check lines consistently – if you do not you will lose the line and cross into others.  I have checked the Cuckfeild Parish records – that are available – checked baptisms and births and marriages and deaths. Not all of them are available and some are destroyed now – Somewhere someone will have something you can look at –  I use Ancestry.co.uk and I check for wills, or apprenticeships where available. I also use the internet – this is my means of reading – but you must try as I must to get to the records office where possible to ascertain your findings are correct.

You will find that the family is linked to Ireland as well – These are through marriage – when a son used his mother’s surname and became known as ‘Wathen -Waller’.  There a lot of readings to be found online –  and I would seriously suggest you do so if you are serious about getting it right.

I, like others got carried away because of the date line attainable – and I tell you now if you do this – be very sure you are right! it is so easy to be carried away by someone elses tree info – and it really needs to be checked as you go .  we have some very interesting people to come across and it opens a new avenue into geneaology.

More to follow soon!

De Valer Research

 

I have been busy researching more into this family and have found a link to the Knight Templar’s.  Now at first I thought no no no… This just can’t be right.  Also I found a site that showed Knights tombs that a chap had put up on the internet and sure enough the writings I found did say about this knight and his wife and where he lived.  On the internet there is an awful lot of different research to be found.

Working so far back in history I have to be-careful what I read and how I use it, because so much is not confirmed.  However, when you start to read writings that have been translated, and start to understand how it all works the you can start to put the puzzle together.

We all know that the Waller family worldwide is linked back together to one family.  We also know that make changes happened.  I must add that in saying this families in the olden days had NO second name as some people believe.  They were taken from Villages or towns from where they lived.  It is only in the Norman times that this started to change.

Interestingly, the De Valers, lived in a village that was a Valley… hence the name DeValer ‘ of the Valley’.  I can here people saying ok then why so many different variations in the spelling?  Well this is quite easily answered as not many people wrote in those days.  Basically through research I find that the Monks, Priest’s etc were the only ones that could wrote or tried to write. This in turn changed over time as Royalty and Hierarchy also learned to write, but the normal everyday person was very limited.  Also these people ALL wrote differently.  So spelling mistakes were very common and hence the different variations.  De Valer was also spelled, de Valeur, De Vallier, De Viler.  Now De Viler was also used in  another family the De Villiers.  So Careful tracking has to be used to make sure it is the correct family.

In the Battle Abbey Roll  http://archive.org/stream/battleabbeyrollw03battuoft#page/238/mode/2up  On Page 238 we will find the following:

‘Michael De Valer, Nicholas De Valer and Ralph Waler. – Nicholas De Valer was granted land at Down-Amney in 1271 by  Edmund Crouchback, Earl of Lancaster. ‘

 

After researching the place and the name I turned up all of this:-

http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/glouces/churches/Down-Ampney.htm

This tells us that this person did exist and had a wife and was a Knight.

Here is a link the Website of ; The Medieval Combat Society’ and a whole lot of photographs that have been taken of knights and Nicholas De Valer is in there plus many many others.

http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm

In the Ancestry line there are generations missing.  Is this the link to that?  Are these the Missing De Valers?  Or are the names written differently else where?